The NEXT BIG THING with Keith D. Terry

The Hidden Cost of the Game: Football, Families & Life After the NFL

• Keith D. Terry • Season 1 • Episode 46

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What really happens when the game ends — and the pain begins?

In this episode of The NEXT BIG THING with Keith D. Terry, Harvard researcher Dr. Alicia Whittington pulls back the curtain on the hidden cost of football. From college stadiums to the NFL, she exposes the human reality behind the glory — chronic pain, CTE fears, and the silent battles families fight long after the lights go out.

💡 You’ll learn:
 • Why 80% of former players live with daily pain and lose up to 10 years of health span
• How family legacy and race shape player health outcomes
• What the Football Players Health Study at Harvard is revealing about life after the game
• The real connection between body, brain, and belonging — and how change begins with awareness

🎙️ This isn’t about touchdowns. It’s about truth.

Whether you’re a fan, athlete, caregiver, or someone who simply loves the game, this conversation will make you rethink what football really costs — and what we can do about it.

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Because understanding the truth is the next big thing.

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Keith D. Terry and JJaed Productions, LLC produced this episode. www.jjaedproductions.com

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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to the podcast, The Next Big Thing. I'm your host, Keith D. Terry, a consultant, a coach, and a serial entrepreneur. The mission here is to teach, inspire, and to motivate. Today's episode is gonna be a good one. We're gonna be talking football. Football is the great American pastime. Friday nights under the lights, Saturday stadiums packed with students and alumni, and Sunday, of course, built for the pros. For millions, it's more than a game. It's identity, culture, and a dream. But here's the truth most people don't want to talk about. When the clock hits zero and the crowds go home, the story doesn't end. For many players, college and NFL alike, it's just the beginning. Behind the glory is pain. I mean real unrelenting pain in some cases. More than 80% of former players live with live with it every single day, have faced serious sleep issues like sleep apnea. Many struggle with joint damage that makes basic movement a battle. And then there's what you've heard is CTE, a word that hovers over us like a cloud storm, over locker rooms and living rooms alike. One in three former players fear they're living with it right now. These are just the statistics. But you have to remember, these are sons, husbands, fathers, brothers, and behind every one of them is a family trying to hold it together. Today's episode is more than touchdown. It's about what happens when the lights go out and the cameras turn away and the game stops. My guest today is Dr. Alicia Whittington. She's made this mission her life's work, or I would say her life's point. Let me introduce my guest. Dr. Elisa Whittington is the assistant director of engagement and health equity research for the football player health study at Harvard University. She has also serves as the co-investigator for Family Experience Managing Football Lives. She brings a unique lens to the human cost of the game. Dr. Winnington, welcome to the next big thing. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you very much. I'm doing well. How are you?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm doing great. So I've been looking forward to this. Before we get into the work, let's talk about you. Where'd you grow up? A little bit about you.

SPEAKER_01:

So I grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, number seven of eight children. And who I am, I define myself as many things, whether it's being a musician, because I study music for most of my life, violin, violin, piano. Um, I'm a scientist, I'm a reader, I'm a crafter, and I am a cool nerd. But at the core of who I am, I label myself as a storyteller. Okay. And one of the things about telling stories is that when you look at data and when you conduct research, the science tells a story. And ever since I was a little kid, um, and we can get into that in a little bit, I was inspired by family history to buckle down in terms of academics and everything I was working on.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I didn't know that storytelling was a passion. And and frankly, well, we'll get into that. I'll I'll tell the folks the surprise at the end of our conversation. But I didn't know that you were a storyteller. And what I find fascinating is that people who can do that can take what they think is hard, and that's science, and and and tell a story about it. So that's that's pretty fascinating.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, you as we were setting this up, you were talking about the year of 1946. Yes. Now, if if I look at you, I know you were not born in 1946.

SPEAKER_01:

No, so 33 years before I got here.

SPEAKER_00:

So tell me the significance of 1946.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, thank you so much. So I just describe myself as many things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_01:

And a lot of that stems from family history. And when I was a little kid, hey, just a second here. When I was a little girl growing up in St. Louis, I was very observant. And I remember asking my parents, like, why don't I have a grandfather? Like, what happened to your dads? And knowing my parents is to know that they didn't sugarcoat what happened. And what I learned was that both of their fathers died in 1946. And I was really curious about that because my parents didn't meet each other until like the 1960 or so in St. Louis. And they both grew up in different parts of Mississippi that are about 115 miles apart.

SPEAKER_00:

So to be clear, both of your grandfathers died in 1946. Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't know that. And what are the commonalities, both black men and Jim Crow and lack of access to adequate health care? Um, and so when hearing about how they died, um, I was really upset. And I said, you know, that should not have happened. I want to grow up and do something to make sure that that doesn't happen again. And so that's when I really started focusing on academics. I mean, I started doing really well in school. And then there's a few other stories along the way that uh, you know, jumpstarted a few other things. But that was the impetus for uh motivating me to go on this journey. Okay. And recently, 1946 came up again. And if I can just share that with you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, please share.

SPEAKER_01:

So, as I mentioned, going on this journey, and I was so interested in science, and I thought perhaps I would become a surgeon. And I didn't realize that I was meant to go in a different direction. And along the way, when I was about 14 years old, one of my brothers made it to an NFL roster. And when I say made it to a roster, that is not to diminish any of the just hard work that it took to get there. But as a sibling, I wasn't that interested in football. However, to know my mom is to know that she would put together these incredible coolers with all the snacks and stuff. And she used to make these crumble popcorn balls where she would, you know, yeah. I don't need to get into all of that, but that's why I made it a priority. Yeah, that's why I made it a priority to go to the games and I'd sit next to her. And then I realized that my brother was doing a thing on the field. He was being the leader. And all of a sudden, lots of coaches from around the country came to the house, and I noticed that my mom was bringing out the fine china. And I was like, okay, we've never dined on this. And I didn't understand what it meant then, but it changed the course of everything. So my brother had multiple college scholarship offers, and then he went to college, played football, went through that process, and then makes it to the NFL.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And that was that tangible example of hard work really does pay off.

SPEAKER_00:

And I remember just for clarity, you were around 14 around this time?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, when he first made it. Yeah. And then I turned 15, and then maybe I believe it was his either first or his second year in the NFL. Okay. He came home from the AFC Championships, and I just knew we were gonna go to a Super Bowl. No hard feelings, I think. That's 20 years ago. But anyway, um, he came home after losing the AFC Championship, and I couldn't understand why he was so happy in that moment. But he was shining the wheels on his brand new BMW.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And I was just sitting there looking at him, and he looked at me, said, Little sis, just keep working hard. Everything is going to pay off for you. And those memories just, you know, kept me, you know, in the game, kept me motivated academically. But what I didn't know is that the journey I would go on would lead me to Harvard, well, back to Harvard as a research scientist, looking at health and wellness of former NFL players. So back to 1946. So as a football player's health study, I uh am very fortunate to work with an incredible team with so many experts that really are devoted, dedicated to this work. And one of the aspects of the study that I lead is health equity research. And just to share with your audience and viewers, health equity is achieved when everyone has the ability to live their best lives in terms of health, to achieve optimal health. But there's this thing called a health disparity, health inequities that obstruct that path. And so looking back at 1946, when my grandfathers couldn't get the health care they needed, and how those stories and hearing about the other stories in our family um of just injustice and health care.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So let's let's let's stay on that journey for a second before because we're gonna have plenty of time to get into the into the to the work that you're currently doing.

SPEAKER_01:

But I have to loop back to 1946 with that too, but flip in it.

SPEAKER_00:

At what age did you make the connection that 1946 was gonna make wasn't just an interesting day? Walk up me through that journey.

SPEAKER_01:

I was 45. 45. Okay. Or almost 45. So um a couple years ago, my team and I were working on a paper. And prior to that, back in 2020, we published at the Football Players' Health Study our first paper looking at health disparities. And they were five general health outcomes. And former players indicated um their experiences with these five different health outcomes. So indicators of chronic pain, anxiety, depression. Um, and these five general health outcomes have an impact on day-to-day life. So your quality of life. And what we found was that the black former players across the board were reporting higher rates of health issues in these five areas. And this is what we define as a health disparity differences in health. And we were really curious about well, what could be driving these differences? And so once we saw what was going on, we added a few other factors into the equation.

SPEAKER_00:

So well, before we go there, I I don't I want to I want to stay on you and the revelation because you said something pretty powerful that a lot of people don't get. You were able to make a connection to your family legacy, your family, your grandparents. Was there any tension between your career path and your calling? And, you know, kind of what you thought young. We kind of want to go that way. You said surgery. You want to be a surgeon.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And so let's let's talk about that tension. You know, from 14 to 45, there are a number of years in between. Can you reflect on on that tension between the two?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, so as you mentioned, we tend to be a little different when we're younger and not as wise. I like to share that I am a reformed destination syndromer. So, destination syndrome, I don't even know if it's an official thing, but is when you don't stop to smell the roses and you're focused on that next thing, and you're not in the moment learning the lessons that this thing is teaching you right now.

SPEAKER_00:

Well said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's a lecture that I give, and it's about the journey to discovering my purpose. And one of the first slides is a map of the United States. It has a star on each city where I've lived and arrows indicating direction and magnitude, and it looks ridiculous. And whenever I put it up on the screen in front of an audience, I ask them, what do you think this is? And some of them are like, I don't know. Like, this is my life.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And it doesn't make sense when you look at the visual, but then when I get into what happened along the way, and I told them, well, I always tell them that the big uh takeaway from the map is that each of those stars, I learned something or gathered some sort of experience or skill set or colleagues that brought me or led me to my purpose. It wasn't until I was in New Orleans and I was in my last semester of coursework in my PhD program. I was taking like five classes and working three jobs. You know how students do.

SPEAKER_00:

And I do.

SPEAKER_01:

Always doing too much. And on my way to class, I broke my foot. Wow. And that's how I met my dissertation advisor. I was actually planning on doing a completely different dissertation. I was gonna study agricultural economics and looking at the food supply because, you know, when you look at just agriculture being a prominent industry in the south, and then looking at my own family history and how healthy people are because they grew up on the farm. Like, why is it that, you know, the southern states tend to be ranked last in almost everything, all of the health metrics, the measures, and but along came this broken foot.

SPEAKER_00:

Now, did you do break your foot running something spectacular?

SPEAKER_01:

No. Um, at the time, I would just make up stories and tell people that, you know, I want to fight. They're like, no, you didn't. We know you didn't fight anyone. But honestly, it was just one of those days where nothing spectacular was happening. Um, I had on cute shoes and they were wedges, kind of high heeled a little bit. And you know anything about the streets of New Orleans, they're not exactly level. And I just wasn't paying attention. I did not see the dip in the curve. And so my foot inverted, smacked the pavement, but I was holding my laptop and I was so focused on saving my laptop that I didn't care about anything else. My glasses flew off, and then my laptop still flew out of my hand. Yeah. And um, when I went down on the ground, I was like, oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing. I hope no one saw that. But then I heard someone yell across the way, Are you okay? And then I looked up and saw two women running to me. And it was just so embarrassing. And they said, Well, let us help you to class. And the minute that I put my foot on the ground, I said, I can't go. I think it's broken. And that's the first time I had ever broken a bone. Very distinct, stinging feeling that you don't forget.

SPEAKER_02:

Broken bones. It is yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

To make it to 30 years old, and I had never broken a bone, I was like, really? And this would happen when I have all these things to do. But I say that the good Lord sat me down to show me my purpose because I was always so focused on the next thing. And what happened was I went over to the sports medicine clinic at Tulane. Okay, and I was just so ashamed. And that's where I got my crutches, my boots, yeah, x-rays and everything. And then when I went home, I said, you know what? I can't have a worse day. Let me just check my email. And in my email, there was an invitation to this event happening in New Orleans. And it was the NFL's community health on mental health awareness. And they were hosting this in conjunction with the Satcher Health and Leadership Institute at the Morehouse School of Medicine. Okay, I said, you know what? Let me go to this and see if there's anything I can learn. And, you know, because my brother's uh from a football family, as I mentioned.

SPEAKER_00:

Life is slowing you down and you're paying attention.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And so back then I caught a cab to the hotel where it was happening because I couldn't walk there, even though it was right there in downtown New Orleans. And so when I hobbled in, and a lot of people remember me from that event when I sat down and I had the program in my hand and I opened it up and I was deeply intrigued. And let me tell you why. Please do. My doctor was on the panel. I didn't know he had anything to do with writing head injury policies in Louisiana and like all this really cool work that he's done in sports medicine and continues to do. And then everyone on the panel I had either a personal or professional connection to. So that was really cool.

SPEAKER_00:

And then the former surgeon general and you didn't know this before going to the event.

SPEAKER_01:

But the really cool thing is that one of my professors showed up and he goes, Alicia, have you met the surgeon, Surgeon General? And I said, No, but I would love to. And he introduced me to him. And the surgeon general said, Well, you're from a football family. I'll make sure that all of the former players introduce themselves tonight. When I got home, I called my mom and I was like, Oh my gosh, mom, I met all these people who're so cool. But I didn't think that there would be any follow-up. However, the following day, I had to go to school for a department meeting.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And my professor came over to me, Dr. Colbertson, and he said, Alicia, I need to talk to you. And this was like right before our meeting. And I was like, oh my gosh, am I in trouble? What did I do? And so I could barely focus on the meeting. But afterwards, I went and found him. And I'm standing there with my crutches. And I said, Okay, you need to talk to me? And he said, uh, yes. And then he asked me, he said, How did the rest of the event go last night? I said, Oh, I was great. I met a lot of people. And then he looked at me with a very serious face and said, You know, you should tap into that resource for your dissertation. And to know me is to know I'm a little stubborn. And then with destination syndrome combined, I looked at him and said, No, that's not what I'm planning to do. And then he said, Alicia, I don't think you understand. Like you are the student that can pull this off. And he just tried to convince me in that moment. But he was being resistant. And I was not convinced, but I wanted to just, you know, end the conversation. And I said, okay, fine. If I do this, will you be my committee chair? And he said, sure, absolutely. And in that moment, I was just thinking, like, wow, you know, when you go through experiences in life, a lot of times you'll experience a lot of no's, hesitation. Really? He saw something. And so what I ended up doing, my next doctor's appointment, and you know, when you break your foot, it's never at a convenient time. I totally needed a pedicure. And so I'm sitting in the appointment and I had my foot propped up. Okay. And I started asking my doctor, Dr. Stewart, questions about the event. And then I was asking him specific questions about the transition from the NFL. And I was asking those questions with my brothers in mind, with family, with friends who've played in the NFL in mind. And Dr. Stewart looked at me and said, Alicia, hold on a second.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

He left the room, the exam room, and came back with two other people. And we had this impromptu research meeting with my foot propped up, needing a pedicure. And Dr. Stewart looked at me and he said, keep meeting with me. And I did. And then one day when I met with him, he said, Alicia, here are two data sources that we have that you can work with for your dissertation. And so what I ended up using were data on high school football players. So in 2011, Louisiana passed the Youth Concussion Act. And as part of one of their education initiatives, they wanted to see, well, what do high school football actually multiple sports, what do they know about concussions? Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, their knowledge and is this the first time that a state had done any kind of concussion study?

SPEAKER_01:

So when I first started reading the literature, um, I was looking at uh even policy papers that looked at the number of states. And so what I learned was that the moms have been incredible advocates in this space. There's a young athlete in Washington state who was injured in a game, permanently injured. And then the momentum built from there. And I believe when I first started my dissertation, 27 states have some form of youth concussion legislation. But now all 50 states in the District of Columbia have some form of concussion.

SPEAKER_00:

Lisa, I have one final question before we get into the There's another thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Can I just add a couple more things?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, please, please.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, um when I went home after that initial doctor's appointment where he said keep meeting with me, I started reading all, I mean, probably hundreds of papers on the history of sports injuries and just concussions, just all these things, right? And then I noticed that I was losing sleep. And I said, you know what? This is interesting. I think I love this, and I think this is my calling. And uh, I would call my brothers and ask them different questions about football, and it turned into lots of fun jokes. So, like with a proposal defense, with a dissertation defense, one of my brothers would call me and ask if I was working on my agility drills. I'm like, no, different types of drills, but not those.

SPEAKER_00:

Since we're gonna end the human part of this conversation, if you could talk to your grandfathers today, what would you want them to know about you, the work you do?

SPEAKER_01:

I would want them to know, number one, that I love them. Um, and number two, that I appreciate everything they did because even though they never had the opportunity to meet me, I know that I descend from them. And I remember writing a story um about one of them, and I wrote it from what I imagine his uh perspective of his fatal bout with appendicitis, uh, my grandfather, Suean Whittington. And my professor, because I I wrote this while in the program at Harvard and one of my favorite classes called Illness Narratives. And so before I got into the actual story, one of the things that I said that struck my professor, I said, you know, I'm his granddaughter. I imagine that, you know, my perceptions, my imagination has to be somewhat similar to his. And then I called my dad and I asked him specific questions about like that time of the year, with it being right after the holiday season and how he had just sold, I forget what year it was, maybe in 1936 Plymouth. And to just, you know, hear about the everyday human things that were happening. And then to know that number one, they never sold him up once he got back to the house, well, got to the hospital. Um, and it was too late. And he never finished the project that he was working on. He was working on the porch. And I think a lot about that too, because as humans, we procrastinate. And I do my best to, you know, carry things to the finish line is a reminder that, you know, time is precious and do what you can while you can. Well said. I did not get their height. I hope I got some of their other attributes. And I would tell them that um they left behind wonderful families that I'm so proud to be a part of.

SPEAKER_00:

Now we're gonna we're gonna get into the the work you do, and we're gonna talk a little bit about the game. And what makes you very interesting, you were the sibling of a ball professional football player, and you work in NFL football right now. If people don't know, they should actually go and visit your website because there's a lot of great data there that gives a perspective on research. And so, you know, my initial question is this when people think about the NFL, you know, they picture bright lights, contracts, fame. Let's step back. What's missing from that picture from your perspective? Because you saw it from a number of different angles.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. How much time do you have? No, just so a few things. When a sibling makes it to the NFL and growing up in the same house, same parents, and in science, and this is you know how it intertwines with storytelling. Yes, there's this thing called social determinants of health, yes, which is defined by the non-medical factors that do have an impact on your health. And so that can be zip code, the where you were born, where you live, where you play, where you're educated, where you worship, all those things. And scientists estimate that those determinants, um, and keep in mind, they can be intervened. Many of them are modifiable, that they estimate that social determinants of health are responsible for up to 50% of what happens to your health.

SPEAKER_00:

Hmm. Okay. Do say more.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so growing up in the same household where both of my parents from Mississippi grew up farming, my dad always had a garden in the back yard. And we grew up lean meats, 85% vegetables on our plates and things like that. And my mom was so diligent. I remember being a little girl and just playing. And my mom would say, Okay, come over, it's time to take your vitamin. And I didn't realize what she was, you know, preparing us for. Drink more water. Oh, eat more vegetables before you get a second helping of meat. Because you know, as kids, we just love to go for it. Yeah. And so my mother and my father pouring that into us and focusing on education and then the religious aspect as well, our faith is what grounds us and really keeps us together as a family. And because remember, I said that where you worship is also a determinant of health. But all those things, and then to see what incredible journeys my siblings have been on is like something really special. And oftentimes people ask me, like, what was it like at the dinner table with your family? And I said, look, after my dad said grace and amen is every person for themselves. And I have the shortest arms. So yeah, it gets really quiet at first. And then, like, once, you know, people start like eating, then you know, the conversation kicks up. But to know that all of that played a huge role in my brothers being healthy. And then when the oldest one uh that played in the NFL started doing well, then my other brother started playing football. And so three of them earned college scholarships to D1 football programs, and two went into the NFL. And so to just see that is incredible. And then alongside all of that, I'm like, well, I can, you know, do some things in school. So and you have I have. And what's incredible too, doing all of this as a first generation college graduate, because with my grandfather's dying in 1946, right?

SPEAKER_00:

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_01:

That created a multi-generational effect. So for example, that ended my dad's childhood. He could only go to school for a few months out of the year, like October, November through February, in that one-room schoolhouse where your teacher is most likely educated maybe third to eighth grade.

SPEAKER_00:

And I didn't know that there was a garden in the backyard all the time. I don't know. There was one in our house too. Oh well, let me let me let me uh let me set this up and we'll get into the research. The the research that you're talking about is called the Football Players' Health Study at Harvard University. Yes. That tell us a little bit about that. It is it sanctioned by the NFL? Is it funded by the NFL? Just give us the backstory of that very quickly before we get into some of the fascinating research.

SPEAKER_01:

So the Football Players' Health Study at Harvard University is the largest study of living former NFL players. And we are funded by the NFL Players Association, which is the union for current and former players.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's where our funding is from. However, um, it's really important to make note of the fact that we are separate, a separate entity. And as trained scientists, um, we're at Harvard University and some other collaborating institutions, including Harvard affiliates, the hospitals, and whatnot, we have a world-class team. Um, and I love just learning from them every day. Because one of my personal mantras is to learn something new every day. And with this job, it's like, okay, I'm learning things here.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Now, are you able to talk about some of the studies? Because I did I did some research, and I know that your team found that there is no link between starting football before the age of 12 and worse long-term outcomes. So if it's not when they start, what really predicts who struggles after football?

SPEAKER_01:

What a question. So let me preface it with a few other things. Okay. So about the football players' health study, we have almost 5,000 former players that have participated. And with that, that one in four NFL players that are out there have participated.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, that's huge.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, it's huge. And then what's also really cool is that in addition to that, sometimes we have almost 2,000 additional players that look at our results. Wow. And so it's my hope that the work is making an impact. And with the football players' health study, we don't isolate any of the um the body systems because what's good for your heart is good for your brain, and vice versa. And we don't separate the two, but looking at how they all um have an impact on health.

SPEAKER_00:

And so how from a layman's perspective, you just said something pretty interesting. You don't separate the health systems. What what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01:

So you know how you have your different body systems. So you have your musculoskeletal system. Yeah. Um, and you know how with football, it's a collision sport. And so you may experience. Pain from that. And one of the great examples that I can share with you is one of our first publications, which looked at the impact of ACL tears. Yeah. And so this paper really touched me in a different way because one of my brothers, uh, his football career was essentially ended by an ACL tear. And what I witnessed in his recovery is just the challenges. But what we found with the football players' health study data is that yes, the players that experience an ACL injury were more likely to develop osteoarthritis and then also to need a knee replacement down the line. But we found a mild association with having a heart attack.

SPEAKER_00:

You look at the total body.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And we also, um, in another study looked at what we found that those that have experienced concussion symptoms, like there's an association with hypertension. Concussion symptoms are also linked to pituitary dysfunction, um, low testosterone, things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I I have I have a lot of questions on many of those. And so, you know, I was trying to go in in some orderly fashion. Since you are looking at the have you well, let you know, staying with the the question of starting football at 12. And, you know, you got a lot of mothers and a lot of fathers that really don't want their kids to play football. But you guys didn't find a link between starting early and and some of the some of the things that happen after football. Why is that, do you think?

SPEAKER_01:

A few things. Uh number one, disclaimer, I am not a parent. Anytime anyone asks me whether or not their uh children should play contact sports, I say, you know, I'm a scientist that produces the knowledge that we learned from the research, and we give it, you know, to you in a way that is digestible. And then we just would hope that you make the, you know, decision that makes sense for you. But here's the thing, and I could talk about this from like a family perspective as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

My brother that played nine years in the NFL didn't start playing football until he was in high school. Did not know that. Yeah. In fact, he wasn't even interested in playing football. He never even watched football on TV. And he wanted to play because his friends were playing. And then I hope he doesn't get upset with me, but I learned last year that he also wanted to play because he wanted to be popular with the girls.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, of course, you gotta have the maybe.

SPEAKER_01:

We had piano lessons on Friday afternoons. And so when he asked our dad if he could play football, dad said, no, you'll get hurt and you're not quitting your piano lessons. And so he had to come back with a different strategy. And so he created that strategy with another brother that's three years older than him. And so when he came back again, he said, But dad, I can earn a scholarship to college. And my dad was like, wait. And he's like looking around because there's so many of us, and he's like, go right ahead, son. You know, because the thought of paying for college for like all one million of us was definitely daunting. But the thing about this brother, though, okay, he wasn't just any sort of athlete. His work ethic prior to playing football was next level. He was born with some things that I just I don't even understand in terms of like energy. He was always the first, the first, the first. Whether it was the first to get to the pantry when mom brought the groceries home, whether it was the first, you know, getting up. And I always hear nature. Yeah, that's his thing. And um, I also think that's a family trait, too, that I also didn't get. Um, I'm a night owl. Here's the thing about when one starts playing football, and then what we were studying. So when you look at how long a career is, in many cases, what you may find is that those who have the longer careers are like the super survivors. Like what about them? Yeah. Whereas like if your career is ended by an injury or if you didn't play as long, and then there's so many factors involved that let's say your transition from the sport wasn't a good one. Because what we do know is that these are some of the healthiest people, like when they're playing football and going into the NFL. But what happens when they leave? Um, it can go in a myriad of ways that could set you up for long-term health issues.

SPEAKER_00:

So let's talk about that. You said you have 5,000 former NFL players that have been part of your study. What's been the most surprising? Because I can get into like I want to talk about CTE, but I want to talk about what has surprised you. What has surprised you the most? Because you've been a part of this team for how long now?

SPEAKER_01:

In two days, it'll be nine years. And so I've seen the evolution of the study prior to, you know, us publishing our first paper and then working with the community to figure out how do we communicate what we find, created this really awesome framework for doing that.

SPEAKER_00:

So, what's been the most surprising?

SPEAKER_01:

What's been the most surprising? So, you know how we have our lifespan, how long live. And have you ever heard of that poem, The Dash, where it talks about the significance of like when you're on earth, like the dash between your when you're born and when you die? So, in science, there's this other concept called health span.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_01:

And so, health span is how long you live until you have a health issue that affects your quality of life. You remember the first paper I was talking about with health disparities. And there is this like long-standing, I would call it a rumor, that players don't live long, but that's not true. They live just as long as everyone else, if not longer. However, the surprising finding for me was when we found that on average, former players are losing 10 years of health span. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, doesn't that make sense though?

SPEAKER_01:

It makes sense. However, when you think about losing health span in that one may feel older than what their actual like chronological age is. And what do we know about when one experiences health challenges? It can really have an impact on mental health and just how you live your life and everything. And then look at the cost of treating chronic diseases in this country, very expensive. So it can be quite tumultuous. And you want to ask a question?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I want you to finish. Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And so the thing about health span, though, is when you take a deeper dive, there's things where we could possibly intervene. Like something like hypertension, if you are working with a primary care physician, that's treatable. Sleep apnea, treatable. And so, what are the ways in which one's health span can be enhanced?

SPEAKER_00:

I'm I'm with you. I I truly get that. And I know, and looking at some of the research, about 35% of the players believe that they have some kind of form of CTE. Now, we can get into the research. Now, you guys are funded by the Player Association to create all of this data. Has there been a change in the game in any kind of way based on the research? Now, I'm asking because you've been there for nine years and you can look back and look forward and you can tell me what you what you think.

SPEAKER_01:

I will say this. I don't really watch football as much anymore because it used to be a recreational activity. So I'm at a game or like back in the day when I would support my students. When I was at Tulane, I worked in the athletic department. But now when I look at football, I think of work, I think of data, I think of like data points, and just also I'm generating new research questions. So I'm like, well, maybe I should do something else.

SPEAKER_00:

So every tackle you're thinking of something different.

SPEAKER_01:

And so I don't really watch it as much, but it is my hope that it the work that we've done has had an impact on how the game is played. However, what's important to note is that our work is with former players. And so every player that's on the field will become a former player. Can we help them in terms of like enhancing health span? All that said, we're not funded by the NFL. However, there is on one of their, I think it's their operations website, and it's really cool because as a storyteller, you know, I want to know about historical perspective. But you can see, and it's publicly available. You can see how the game has evolved over the years and all of the different rule changes. It's really interesting. Like whether you move like where a play starts, like kickoff and all that, and just different things. Yeah. But I'll share this. I remember reading my first round of papers when we're in on my dissertation. And I learned about how in 1905, I believe there were 18 fatalities in football. But back then, um, they had the leather caps instead of the hardly like little leather cap folded up, put it in your back pocket and go home. And after that season with so many fatalities, there was a pause on football, and I believe it was President uh Teddy Roosevelt who led the charge, because I think he played football, who was interested in like figuring out what to do with football, if they should, you know, implement uh more safety measures or just get rid of the sport altogether. And this is a metaphor, I say, for how the work goes. With new leg rules in place, there were 33 fatalities. So it's like, oh man, you do what you can to improve health and safety, but you're learning along the way.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you guys have uncovered some really fascinating data points. And and I guess the question is for me, so people understand, 5,000 former players, um, and you said one in four, or one in four. And so my question is uh, how long are they waiting before they enter the study?

SPEAKER_01:

Also, a wonderful question. So I'll talk about our inclusion criteria. So, in order to be eligible to participate in the football players' health study, one must be a former player that played from 1960 on. And the reason why 1960 is important is because of um the helmets and also when you think about career length. If a former player signed the dotted line on a contract and they showed up to training camp and decided not to do this, they are still eligible. I see. Just think about all of the requirements for becoming an NFL player. Now there's education requirements, um, and obviously you have to be in great shape. And players are, I have met so many that are just incredibly brilliant. Incredibly brilliant. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So the inclusion criteria is is um two years out or since 1960.

SPEAKER_01:

Since played 1960 on and is a former player.

SPEAKER_00:

Former player, gotcha.

SPEAKER_01:

And they must be uh verified, and we have a process for that.

SPEAKER_00:

Um do you guys include or talk to their families? Because there is a perception that people leave the violent game of football kind of mentally messed up. Concussions, CTE. Are you seeing a connection between the what former players need and the burden on their families?

SPEAKER_01:

I love this question. Um, and the reason why I love this question is football, I define it as a team sport, a community sport, but it's also a family sport. Like I remember my mom making smoothies for my brothers and just like making sure that they had all the things at home to make sure that they could, you know, recover from practice and games and whatnot. And then to be there as like their social support, their support system, which is really important to be done research on that. And let me share something about the football players' health study that makes it unique.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Please do.

SPEAKER_01:

We utilize a framework called community-based participatory research. And in the literature, there's like nine published principles, but all of them essentially keep the community where you're conducting the work at the center of all of the work, start to finish. In fact, the literature defines it as a collaboration between the scientists and researchers, clinicians who are conducting the research and the community where it's happening. And so there's a lot of co-learning that happens. So when the football players' health study began, before I joined this team, they actually put together an advisory board with former NFL players. And as you see on our website, there are 29 of them. And they represent a range of experience from different positions, era of play, geographic locations. And we can't do the work without the community. And so, as a scientist, yeah, as a scientist, like we're trained in a very specific way. However, the experiences of an NFL player, the NFL players know that best. And so I was at a conference earlier this year where they said, you know, with equity work, you don't parachute into the community and thinking that you have the answers or thinking that you know what to do or how to conduct research. The priorities of the research are defined by the community. And so when they brought the former players to Boston, one of the first things they said to our team was, you know, if you really want to understand our experiences, you need to bring in the family. And so we created a family advisory board.

SPEAKER_00:

There's a link based on some of the research that you guys have done. There's a there's a data link between concussion and hypertension, high cholesterol, especially people under 40. Any idea why that might be happening?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, as I mentioned before, not separating the body systems from each other. Um, and I'll leave it to the clinicians to further explain what could be happening from a physiological perspective. But as I mentioned before, what's good for the brain is good for the heart. What's good for the heart is good for the brain. I did want to please do. So prior to the, oh, totally fine. Got a chance to get some water. Well, when the football players' health study began prior to my joining the team, and they brought the former player advisory board to Boston and they said to the team, hey, if you really want to understand our experiences, you must include families because they they know what's going on with us. And so we formed a family advisory board as well. And when I tell you that they have been just incredible to work with, and these are some of our like amazing ambassadors from the community that not only share their experiences, but they introduce us to other community organizations that are also doing work to support former players and families. Okay, that's interesting. And they worked alongside with us to create the framework for returning results so that the research, once it's published in a peer-reviewed journal, that it goes beyond the ivory tower. And so we created that with three parts in mind, and it was their brainchild to share what the results were and why we did the study. Then the next part is what this may mean for a former player. And then the third part is resources and action steps because some of the research may be a bit challenging. And so we wanted to make sure that they can follow up and learn more about the health conditions that we're studying and to see where resources are available for players and go from there.

SPEAKER_00:

The last segment is going to be looking towards the future. What I found interesting is some of the data that you guys came up with or the results showed that mid-range players, and we're talking longevity, whether you played one day or as long as Tom Brady, 20 years or something like that, that the mid-range careers were the ones that had the worst outcomes. I'm getting that correct. Why do you think that is? Because I would think that that those folks that have been around and playing for more than 11 seasons are going to suffer the worst.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's important to note that we're still learning.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

However, with a career in football, what could be happening is a multitude of things. So once you make a roster, you must maintain your spot on that roster. And there's an influx of, you know, new players every year that are joining this game. I've heard from friends and family about how, you know, there's no job security and just you have to continue to like work hard. And then sometimes you'll see like different parts of the organization structure, like whether there's a new coach in a team of coaches that are working. And, you know, they may, I don't even want to speak in football terms because if I were to say they may run a certain type of office, that I really would not know what that's out of my depth. But lots of different variables. But the one that I'm interested in is like when an injury happens.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Like reasons for leaving the NFL. And so to that, I would say stay tuned because the work is ongoing. And it takes a long time for this type of study to get up and running and get it stride. Just like with many athletes, like my brother, he fumbled around a little bit at first. He was working hard, but one day it clicked. Like, oh, this is how you do this. And from then on, he was unstoppable.

SPEAKER_00:

And so when you guys are thinking about, when you think of, when you guys are thinking about future studies, um, how do you go about designing your studies?

SPEAKER_01:

Such a great, great question. So the football players' health study is a longitudinal study, meaning we're studying health over time. And you've heard me mention a few times, like this is what we learn from this. So in the field of epidemiology, which is um what one of my degrees is in. So uh you learn about the distribution and determinants of diseases, and depending on where you're studying that, you know, that's where you're focusing on. We start with health and wellness questionnaires. I'm sure someone as intuitive as yourself would say, well, if someone's filling out a questionnaire, how do you know they're telling the truth? That's the power of having a large cohort because you can find signals in the noise, so to speak. It's not noise, it's valuable data, but in terms of an epidemiology perspective. And from there, we created additional research initiatives. And you may see some of those on our website. I can share with you all the links. But one of the things that we're really proud of is that we brought um 111 former players to Boston. They went through a three and a half day battery of total health assessments. And when I joined the team, that was when we were like, okay, how do we even do this? Like, what are all of the assessments that need to be a part of this? Research initiatives, who are the investigators to work with, a lot of coordination. And it seemed just impossible at one time, but with so many brilliant minds that care about former player health. And as I mentioned before, the community did this along with us. They helped us like figure out how do we make this comfortable. I remember sending out emails like, can you measure your head to make sure that we have like the right size equipment? And um, I remember going to look at the different assessment rooms, and my coworkers would laugh and say, Hey, will your brother fit on this table? Can he, you know, sit in this chair?

SPEAKER_00:

And what I find interesting is this is where is all of this data going in the future? And what's the impact? I'm not a conspiracist, but I I think the National Football League is is one of the most successful sports ever created. And so you guys have are looking at the health of a gladiator sport. I really wonder how the data is being used in terms of player care, how it's being used in terms of how it's being used in terms of how they insure themselves, because a lot of them have to have cert surgeries or injections. You want to talk a little bit about how the data could be used as an epidemiologist. I know you are thinking about it in a certain way, but then it has its application to real-world stuff about how it's being used.

SPEAKER_01:

So if I could take it a step back to when Walter Camp, the father of American football, he was a student at Yale, played football there, and then went on to coach there. And I like to speak on this because I graduated from Yale with my master's in chronic disease epidemiology, and I happened to live on the same street that he apparently grew up on. It's a long street, though. A number of years ago, the Yale Alumni magazine published this article on football in Walter Camp because um there was someone who wrote a book on his life, and his thing with football was to challenge the human body to its peak physical ability. And here's the thing, too. They published in this article some of his notes about what to do prior to competition, the type of food you eat, being sequestered, and the discipline that it takes to be an elite athlete. And those are the things that went on to become football culture. So there's a lot of positive attributes to playing football. Like when I saw my brothers focusing, when I saw my brothers focusing on, you know, getting to that next big thing with football, it inspired me. I was like, wow, well, I can do better at the following. And so with the data itself and how we could use it, wow, I hope that with data, it is used to tell a story that inspires and changes lives, enhances lives. And because we're talking about data, I must share the disclaimer that um the football players' health study, privacy, and confidentiality are very important to us. And we have certificates of confidentiality from the NIH. And this is something that we take very seriously. So there's there's that disclaimer. What I like to say about data, and this is my whole like storyteller spiel. Okay, each data point is a person.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01:

And as you're working on the science, it's important to keep that in perspective and to bring your empathy to the table because you never know who that outlier is. But when you focus on health equity, where you're focusing on everyone that can have the ability to achieve optimal health, it puts things into perspective. It was really fascinating too. And it makes me wish that I'd taken more sociology courses. Think about the impact of this on different communities and the social networks and whatnot. Because there's a lot of things about football that are absolutely incredible. Think about what happens in a community when someone makes it to the NFL.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And like my high school, yeah, there's a lot of pride. And for the 50th Super Bowl, they sent out these gold um footballs to the high school of anyone that had ever played in a Super Bowl. And so many of the high schools in the area where I grew up received one of those. And it's just, it's amazing to see how when others, you know, put in the work too, and just you build up that cultural piece. I remember being in a meeting with our senior faculty, and I told them about the number of guys from my neighborhood, the number from my high school. There was an article published a number of years ago where we were ranked 15th in the nation for sending guys into the NFL draft. And like that badge of pride, like that is incredible. And so, of course, as scientists, we're always wondering, like, well, what is behind this? And they asked me, they said, Well, what is it about where you grew up?

SPEAKER_00:

Just big, big people.

SPEAKER_01:

Great people, part of the many, part of the southern migration north. People that believe in community, family, and pouring heart and love and soul into everything they do.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you know, I wanna I wanna stay on the health equity part. You know, given the new administration we have in DC and the pushback against health equity, um, you are you are you thinking of health equity from a racial perspective or from an equity standpoint of former players versus everybody else?

SPEAKER_01:

Also, a great question. So, in terms of health equity, it could be anything that is an obstacle to optimal health. It doesn't have to necessarily be race or racism, which is actually structural racism, systemic racism. Those are the it's not that you are because you are a certain race that this is gonna happen to you. It's the factors around. Remember, I mentioned the determinants of health. Yeah. And um, even how uh resources are allocated. Do you have sidewalks in your neighborhood? There's things like we call them.

SPEAKER_00:

No, you guys are you asking that that those types of questions? Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Not yet. Okay. So there are other things that we are asking about, and that part of the research is evolving. Stay tuned there. It was just that, you know, with so much data and you notice certain trends. And so then you want to dig deeper. And so we've published on chronic pain, where the black former players are reporting higher levels of intense pain and things like that.

SPEAKER_00:

And then what's so fascinating about that is that it in there's a bias in healthcare that black people have a higher threshold of pain and therefore they're not given pain medication. I just looked at that before we came on. Any insights you can give on the pain study? Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'd like to take it away from football for a moment. And because when you're in graduate school and you learn about health disparities, you learn about those things. You learn about how when there's a condition where certain communities may be more disproportionately affected by these conditions. And I'm thinking specifically of hypertension, where um, you know, the black community higher rates and when they conducted the clinical trials for some of the medications, the clinical trial participants didn't look like the community that's, you know, disproportionately affected by the condition. And so it's like, well, how can you really understand what's happening so that you can make sure that they can achieve optimal health? And so systemic factors. There's so much that I could say about that, but I won't take up all of your time with it. But it's really important, really important, heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_00:

Say more about that. Heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_01:

Just because when I think back to why I never had a grandfather, and had they just lived five to ten more years, it would have changed the trajectory of our families. My dad would have been able to go to college because my grandfathers believed in education. Um, and they believed in hard work and access to care is important. But to be systematically locked out of adequate health care, it's heartbreaking. And another thing, too, I'm in the first generation to do all of these things, but to be the first in the first generation born in a hospital is really something. Because in yeah, the first hospital was open in 17, I believe the 1750s. And then to know that 33 years after 1946, you know, I was born in a hospital, and it's like, what in the world? Like, what are we being locked out of?

SPEAKER_00:

And how I understand what you mean by the pain component of that. And as we get ready to close out, I guess now I can kind of introduce the surprise to my listeners. And that is Dr. Alicia Whittington is my first cousin. In fact, her her father and my mother are brothers and sisters. And she's absolutely right. 1946, our grandfather passed from something really simple as a rupture to genocitis. So I just want a folks to know that. But I am so proud of you, Lisa, for what you're what you're doing and and Bernard and Durl and all of all of the everyone's journey. And so as we get ready to close this out, um, you know, what fascinates me about the work that you guys are doing over at at Harvard, this football study, is that you're looking at former players, is that you're looking at the at the at the whole person. And I guess, you know, my curious brain wonders when we look into the future, what do you see happening with with with the study? And it's a two-part, and I want you to stay on this part one with a study and its impact on life after football. Because I'm gonna, well, let me stop there and not not get on my soapbox.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a family trait, by the way. Right. So what I see in the future, because we are generating a lot of information. And I mentioned before that when you publish research in a peer-reviewed journal, it shouldn't stay in the ivory tower. It needs to get back to the community. Yes, it does. Yeah. And so what I see for the future, what I see for the future is measuring the impact of what we're sharing. Because that's the whole point. If we're going to enhance one's health span, quality of life, how are we doing? The information that we've shared, is it saving lives? Is it encouraging individuals to go to the doctor? While working in this field, you hear a lot of like compelling stories. And then you hear themes. And one of those themes has been that for many former players that in their lives after football, they're navigating the US healthcare system on their own for the first time. And communication is also one of those determinants of health. And so when we learned about this, our team said, okay, well, what can we do to help? That's also like rooted in the research, research-based tips. So we created what is called the health checklist. And it is designed to where if former players are, you know, preparing for a doctor's visit, and it's a guide, a conversational guide for them to talk to their physicians. And so in that sense, it becomes a bi-directional tool where they learn more by asking questions. And it's available on our website. And I'll uh send you the link so that you can share it with Please do. And to be honest, anyone can use this checklist because it's based in research tips. And another thing about health equity and health disparities, when you focus on making life health and all the things better for those who are suffering more than others, everyone benefits.

SPEAKER_00:

When you guys look at outcomes, do you do it based on position? Offensive player roles versus defensive player roles.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I'll go back to the first example that I gave, the first health disparities paper. When we saw the number of health issues they were, or the frequency at which they were reporting those different health outcomes, and it's to know well, what could be associated with this? So, yes, we did, you know, um, and when you're doing statistical modeling, what you do is you add in a variable for position, body mass index, and other factors, and then you look at the results. And so that's the kind of like nerdy statistician piece. No, that's what's fair. But it's important because if you do not take those things into account, you may be missing something.

SPEAKER_00:

Are defensive players or linebackers more injury prone after versus running backs versus quarterbacks? Can you say anything about it?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I'll go back to my dissertation research and how when I first approached it, and this goes to show you how much I was paying attention or not when my brother So in the survey, they asked the um the athletes like what position did they play? They experienced concussions and et cetera, et cetera. And so I thought that quarterbacks would have experienced the most uh number of concussions because that's who everyone on defense is trying to get after. And when I told my brothers that, they were a little ashamed. But in uh my sample for my dissertation, it was the running backs and the receivers. And yeah, um, yeah, so I learned a lot about that. But on the professional level, I'll say stay tuned. We have some other colleagues that can really speak to that, but we're still learning.

SPEAKER_00:

Any any closing remarks you want to say to my to the listeners about what you do or your your legacy and your direction?

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much. I appreciate this opportunity. I have thoroughly enjoyed hanging out with you, cousin. I would like to share with your audience uh a few things. Number one, if you have the opportunity to do so, connect with your family history. Um and the reason why I say that is because you may learn a lot about health trajectories in general, and you may find some inspiration from it. And for someone like me, it led me to my purpose of being on earth, which is just absolutely incredible. And it was because I started off as a precocious, nosy little girl and just wanted to know like, why don't I have a grandfather, you know? And it will inspire you along the way. And if I could just share like a couple of anecdotes. Please. When I was in junior high, it was the first time that I was in a classroom with students where everyone didn't look like me. And that was an interesting experience. And I also did not try that hard in school. And without trying, I know. And it's because I was like, oh, I'm in junior high now, whatever. And I didn't try, and I got a 3.5. And my father, your uncle, saw my report card and he said, which you don't say to stubborn people like myself, he said, Oh, I bet you can't get a 4.0. And I said, I bet I can. Mm-hmm. Well, I'm getting there in a minute. And so my dad said, Okay, you make a 4.0, I'll give you$40. And you know, as a child, like that feels like a million bucks. And so what I did was I came up with a strategy. I went and talked to all six of my teachers for that before the quarter started. And I said, This is my goal. And I want to do everything that it takes to get there. So communication is important, discipline, being focused, having goals, very important. And my father saw me at night when he got home from work, just struggling, trying to like make it right. And as the stakes became like more, you know, dire, my father would up it. He was like, okay,$60,$80. And then when I was really struggling, he was like, okay,$100. And I was like, I've got to get this. And there was one class, one class that was giving me the blues. And I was like, I don't know if it's gonna happen. Because back then you had to have a 95% average to get an AR classes. And when I got my 95, I earned every bit of that 95%. Okay. And my teacher, Mr. Brownfield, said, You did it. And I went home and I remember being on the school bus and passing around my report card. And everybody's like, oh my gosh, she got a 4.0, she got a 4.0, look at this. And it was just so cool how everybody was so happy for me. I was tired, I was worn out. But when I got home and I waited for my dad, I waited up late for him to come home from work because he worked the 3 p.m. when he came home. I said, Here, look. And I'm thinking he's about to have like some grandiose response. And his response was, good, I knew you could do it. And I was just like, Wait, what? Did you just trick me into like my potential that I should have recognized in the first place? We were talking about it last night. He said, Yeah, I had to, you know, inspire you to, you know, get your lesson. And I stayed there and I told him, I said, You tricked me. But I remember when you heard about that, and it was my sophomore year in high school, and you said, I bet you can't get straight A's for the year. And how much did you have to pay me?$200.

SPEAKER_00:

$200. And when you did, you called me and said, All time to pay up. I happily sent.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. But that's important, but there's one more piece. After you get there, you have to pay it forward. And so while on your show, I'm gonna figure out a way to find either a relative or a local youth or something that I can inspire in the same way.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, Lisa, Dr. Alicia Whittington, thank you so much for joining me on the Next Pick Thing. You know, this has really been a delightful conversation. I I purposefully waited till the end to tell folks you're we were related because this is really about you, not us. And I wanted to hear your story. I really loved and thank you for sharing the connection about 1946 and the loss of both grandparents and your journey to your purpose. And so, you know, right now you're doing some work that I think people could really appreciate. And and I'll end on this note and just say that this has been a phenomenal exercise. Uh I mean a phenomenal episode that talks about legacy and generation and and getting one and and living your life to your purpose and the surprising things that happen that nudge you on the way, like your broken foot, and and you being and someone pushing you. So, to all my listeners out there, I want to thank you for joining us on this episode. I do ask you to go and find Dr. Alicia Whittington. Again, she's doing some work with the Football Players Health Study at Harvard University. You should really visit their website because what I'm looking at right now, they post all of their results and it's pretty phenomenal. Thanks for listening to The Next Big Thing. I'm your host, Keith D.Terry. If you've enjoyed this episode and you'd like to support this podcast, please share it with others. Post about it on social media or leave a rating and a review. To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on my YouTube channel at Keith D.Terry. If you want to recommend a guest, please email me at info at terryperformancegroup.com. This has been produced by your host, Anne J Productions.