The NEXT BIG THING with Keith D. Terry

Is Nature the Medicine We’ve Been Missing? How Forest Bathing Can Heal Stress & Burnout

• Keith D. Terry • Season 1 • Episode 42

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In a world where more people feel burned out, stressed, and over-medicated, a growing movement is asking a simple but powerful question: what if the healing we need doesn’t come from a prescription bottle, but from the forest itself?

On this episode of The NEXT BIG THING with Keith D. Terry, we explore the practice of forest bathing with Dr. Gayle Byck — a certified forest therapy guide, board-certified patient advocate, and certified senior advisor. As founder of InTune with Nature and InTune Health Advocates, Dr. Byck helps people reconnect with the natural world while also navigating the complexities of the healthcare system.

Together, we discuss:

  • What forest bathing really is, and how it differs from a simple walk outdoors
  • The surprising ways nature impacts mental health, stress, and physical well-being
  • How time in nature can reduce caregiver burnout and even lower healthcare costs
  • Practical steps for reconnecting with nature — even in urban, high-stress environments
  • The future of healthcare if nature-based healing were fully embraced

Dr. Byck’s journey from patient advocacy to forest therapy reveals how the most powerful medicine might be the one that’s been around us all along.

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Keith D. Terry and JJaed Productions, LLC produced this episode. www.jjaedproductions.com

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Keith D. Terry:

Welcome to the podcast the Next Big Thing. I'm your host, keith D Terry, a consultant, a coach and a serial entrepreneur. The mission here is to teach, inspire and to motivate. Today's episode steps away from the boardroom policies and profit margins and into the quiet power of nature. We live in a fast-paced, hyper-connected world, yet more and more people are feeling burnt out, over-medicated and disconnected from their own well-being. There is a growing movement of people seeking a different kind of healing, one that doesn't come in a prescription bottle or a high-tech device, but in the scent of pine needles after rain, in the slow rhythm of your own breath when the noises fade away.

Keith D. Terry:

My guest today bridges two worlds the structured, often complex healthcare system and the simple, profound wisdom of nature. She has guided patients through medical red tape and now she's guiding them through the forest, helping them rediscover clarity, balance, health. In many ways most people have never experienced and in one case even saved a life. Now let me introduce you to Dr Gail Bick. Dr Gail Bick is a certified forest therapy guide, a certified patient advocate and a certified senior advisor. She runs In Tune with Nature and In Tune Health, advocates blending science, advocacy and compassion to support both patients and caregivers who stand beside them. Today, we're exploring how slowing down, stepping outside and truly connecting with nature can change not only your health, but your life. Gail, dr Bick, welcome to the Next Big Thing. How are you doing today?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I'm good. Thanks, keith, and I love that intro. I feel like you just kind of put it all together.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, thank you. Well, let's you know, before we, you know, get into the science of this. I want to. I want to try something. Start with the human side of this and take me back to a moment where you were standing outside in nature and you felt a shift. What happened?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I can share something that happened that was really profound and what made me actually go into the forest bathing and take the forest guide training course.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

It was it was in April of 2023 and my dad had just passed away about six weeks before.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

He hadn't been well for a long time and you know things were rough at the end and my daughter was getting married at the end of May of that year, so it was a stressful time, let's just put it that way, and I um, I have this, what I call my happy place in Utah that I love to go to.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Okay, and I asked my best friend from college to meet me there, and as soon as we pulled up and looked out at the state park that borders this adventure spa, they call it I immediately and physically felt the stress leaving my body from head to toe. And physically felt the stress leaving my body from head to toe, and I think that when I got there, my shoulders were like up here. I was so stressed out and they dropped and I just I turned and looked at my friend and I said I'm going to do this forest bathing thing. And that was the moment that because I had heard about it maybe, maybe four or five years before and, like a lot of people, I laughed when I heard the name forest bathing and you know I didn't really. I knew that I always felt really good in nature. I call it I need my nature fix.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And you know, I feel I go out to these national parks out west and I feel re-energized, I feel calmer, I just felt more in balance and I just had this need to do that regularly. And then this experience was so profound that I said I'm going to go ahead and see how I can bring this to other people.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, you know, that's interesting because that gets me to my next question. What a great segue. That is because you know you've, you've walked both sides. You're walking the healing high pressure side, where you know. Now you're on the quiet side, and I guess that's when you realized that you had to step to the other side, did you? You know, when did you make the? Was it that moment that you made the connection that this would be a part of your business plan?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

It really was and it made sense because all of my clients on the patient advocacy side are stressed out.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

There's not a single person that reaches out to me that isn't stressed. I once had the daughter of a client, after like a really tough phone call with her dad, call me up after and apologize for how he was just kind of venting and behaving, and I said to her it's okay, everyone is stressed. That's why they need me. I don't take it personally and it's true whether people are calling me because there's an illness they need help managing or they're fighting with their insurance company over tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know it's stressful and so it kind of all connected for me then that you know how can we help people have less stress. And I also, like I were.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

A lot of my advocacy clients have been older people, people with dementia, and all of a sudden they're being moved into senior communities, memory care facilities and they're not getting outside that often and some of these people like that's what that was their favorite thing to do. One of my clients used to do 100-mile bike rides, you know, and she'd go for several walks a day. She liked gardening and I'd go visit her in memory care and they're always inside. You know people need it and I leave these places and I think I'm going to be so depressed if I'm here one day and I'm stuck inside. It's like you walk out and you almost need to take a deep breath of the fresh air. You know, and so I'm working on how can we bring more nature to people who maybe can't get to the forest or can't get to the beach or the mountains, and so that's also a connection.

Keith D. Terry:

Before we do that deep dive, I have one more human side question, and that is you know, if the world could hear one truth about you that doesn't show up on your LinkedIn profile, what would that be?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Oh, you need to give me that in advance to think about.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, you know.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I'm an empath, are you? I really feel what other people's pain, other people's stress, other people's issues and want to help them. Maybe that doesn't show up in a LinkedIn profile, but I'm really trying to connect with people and help them.

Keith D. Terry:

Wow, an empath, that's pretty. That's a pretty powerful tool in trade to have. I mean, has that been something that you've tried to make more pronounced and significant as a part of who you are?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Absolutely Okay, absolutely. It's something that I'd say really worked on more in the last 10 years through some things I've done for personal growth.

Keith D. Terry:

And just interesting when did you find out you were an empath?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Oh, I don't know.

Keith D. Terry:

Because I wish I was.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I don't know Again. It's from a lot of work I've done personally and spiritually and just how I feel when I'm listening or reading stories about other people's pain.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You know, I really take that in.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay, Okay. So now let's dive in. And so you took. You know I'm sorry to hear about your father. Thank you, you took this trip. You were in nature and it made you relax. Had you been hearing about forest bathing before then?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I heard a little bit about it and, like I said, I just kind of laughed about it.

Keith D. Terry:

You know it has a funny name.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Let's be honest.

Keith D. Terry:

Right out there it has a funny name.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Everyone likes to make the same joke, which is oh, are we going in the forest and taking our clothes off and taking a bath? And no, please keep your clothes on during the experience. It's a bath for your senses is what it is. But you know it sounded a little weird. I was very focused on that patient advocacy business and then I didn't give it a lot of thought until that experience after my dad passed.

Keith D. Terry:

Yeah, and again I'm sorry to hear that, and now I really understand that because I was going to ask is there a personal experience that led you there? I guess what I'm asking now. It's one thing to use forced bathing personally, but you've now stepped in and made it part of your profession, and what was the process of going about getting a certification First, recognizing that it's a real business, I guess? Can you help me to understand that part of it?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Yeah, so there are these two women who run a program called the Forest Therapy School, and I did the training through them and it was fabulous in that we had a cohort of, I think, around 16 people from not only all over the country, but we even had someone from New Zealand who would be on our Zoom, our weekly Zoom calls.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And so just really connecting with other people who wanted to do this work and it gave a sense of community to it too, and so I've met others and you know we all try to help each other and share Programs that aren't always just traditional forest bathing, such as bringing even nature indoors to senior communities and people who can't get out, or doing these full moon programs. And you know, in the evenings, where we have a little bit different, we do some forest bathing and some journaling and releasing. You know what's holding us back, sort of thing, and so just giving lots of ideas and a framework for thinking about the business. And then I've just been basically doing word of mouth. So I started this last year and if you're in the Chicago area, so you remember the great cicada invasion of 2024?

Keith D. Terry:

Yes, the 17 year and the 13 year ones, yeah, of 2024.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Yes, yes, the 17 year and the 13 year ones. Yeah, yes. So it was a little bit of a rough start because nobody wanted to go out and have cicadas flying at them all the time. But I basically offered a couple like free sessions to people in my networking groups and then the word started getting out and I started booking all these programs with different groups. Some businesses do it as an employee wellness type of program or just a treat for their employees, a team building exercise. I've done this with friend groups, with a family, with senior centers, through libraries. It works for really every age and every type of person.

Keith D. Terry:

So let's start with the basics. What is forest bathing?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So, as I said, it's a bath for your senses. We're immersing our senses in nature, and it started in Japan in the 1980s and it's in Japanese. It's called Shinrin Yoku, which just means forest bath, and, as you said in your intro, they started it because of their high tech work culture and what they were seeing in their society. As a result of that, people created this concept of forest bathing and there's a structure to it.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

We start with a guided meditation that really focuses on awakening all of your senses, and then there's a series of invitations, and the invitations are to wander out and notice something, and so, as an example, it might be wander out and listen to the sounds of the forest. You know when I do a nice quote or poem to lead into each invitation and then you have time to wander out and notice whatever the invitation is about. Or I make it clearer the word invitation is very purposeful. If that's not what you want to do or think about or notice, then do something else. It's your time in nature. You know we like to say in the forest guide community that the trees know what you need, the forest knows what you need.

Keith D. Terry:

Got it, so you do what you need. Got it.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And then we come back after each invitation and we have a sharing circle so people can share their observations or what came up from them. Again, everything's optional in forest bathing, so if you want to pass, you pass, and sometimes people say you know.

Keith D. Terry:

As long as you are in nature, there is a benefit that you get.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

There is a benefit. Yes, so in a sharing circle someone might say oh, I noticed that some of the leaves are soft and some are prickly. Or people might say something like what a woman said this summer, which was I noticed that the tree was so bent over and weighed down and it was almost at the point of breaking but because of the branches fell on another tree. That tree was supporting the first tree and holding it up, and she said that made her realize that she's dealing with something really difficult and she hasn't asked for help and she needs to ask her support system for some help. So, like you know, the comments are they range. And then, after we do the series of invitations, we end with the tea gathering. So again, it started in Japan, so of course it ends with tea, and the tea is about gratitude and reciprocity with the earth and just a time to kind of debrief at the end and talk about the experience, and often people don't want to leave.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

They're feeling really relaxed and they don't want to go on with their day.

Keith D. Terry:

Now, is there a certain type of forest that you should go to, certain kind of greenery you should go to? All forests considered the same healer power.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

How do you look at it, so the way I look at it, because again we're in the Chicago area- so we don't have the vast regal forests of Yosemite or Yellowstone or you know, out west and it still works.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So you can go anywhere. You can do this in your backyard, you can. If you're in the city and there's not a lot of greenery, you can find a tree. You could sit on your porch with a plant, you know, and have the experience. You can do it at the beach, in the desert, you know, at any place. Just be outside. You can even do it indoors. As I mentioned earlier, I've been doing things where I'm bringing nature in. You know we have a long winter here.

Keith D. Terry:

Yeah, we do.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I like to say there's no bad weather, just bad clothes. But the truth is, especially for people who aren't well or who are older. They're not going to go outside in the winter or even in all the extreme heat days we've had this summer.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, can you do forest bathing in the winter.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You can Okay. In fact, it can be a wonderful experience.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You know you got that fresh air. You don't have as many other people outside and it's really interesting to go to the same spot in each season and reflect on how it's changed and what's different, and even connect those to our own life cycles. You know we've got winters.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, you know, most people know that nature is good for us, and you've studied it. Are there some surprising outcomes or impacts that happen mentally, physically and emotionally that you could talk about?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Absolutely, and research going on at all the top universities around the world by neuroscientists and others who are studying the effects of nature including forest bathing, but nature in general on our health. So I don't think it's surprising to hear about the mental health benefits, because I think most people have had experiences where they go out in nature and we feel calmer less stressed.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Our mood is better, we were more creative afterwards. You know there's a lot of really interesting studies and not so surprising, but physically I find that more surprising. So the trees release something called phytoncides which protect them from disease and from pests. And the phytoncides can be thought of as like the essential oils of the tree and when we breathe those phytoncides in, it activates our immune system. It activates what's called our natural killer cells.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So there's research going on about can being in the forest be protective against cancer? Can it help with your cardiovascular health? And there's people who have studied the effects of going in the forest on our blood pressure, our heart rate, our cortisol levels, cortisol measures, stress. So in Japan they have some designated forest bathing trails and they've done research where they'll get you at the beginning, if you want to participate, and they'll measure your blood pressure, heart rate, cortisol and whatever else they're studying, and when you come out they'll take those measurements again and it all goes in the right direction and then they followed people over time and those effects can last for a week or more. So in Japan your doctor might not write you a prescription for medicine. He or she might write you a prescription to go out in nature for two hours every week.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So they're looking at it in a different way than most of us are here. Yeah, there was a study from I think it was 1984, where they looked at people who were hospitalized and whether they had a view out their window of some greenery or of that brick wall that sometimes happens.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And people who had the greenery view were released from the hospital sooner, they recovered faster. There's so much fascinating research going on in the area. But, yes, mental health and physical health benefits from being in nature, and we haven't even talked about just the physical activity Now. Forest bathing is not a strenuous hike and it's really slow paced, but you are outside and you're walking around, and so that's a benefit as well.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay, and so emotionally, I would assume that have there been studies on the emotional side of health?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Of being in nature. Well, nature can help your brain release all those happy chemicals Dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin. What else I'm missing? A couple Endorphins.

Keith D. Terry:

You know, there are all these right.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So that's more your emotional side. It can also help you feel more connected to other people and to the world, to nature, and it can just make you feel good in general. The world to nature, and it can just make you feel good in general.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, you know I'm a believer in what you're doing. I know I have a daughter that lives in California and she hikes all the time.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Mm, hmm.

Keith D. Terry:

You know, I like to get out and ride my bike and I love riding this lake and greenery and doing different kinds of things. I wonder, because you are a health advocate and you are, you know, Godspeed to you Are you finding that Western medicine is accepting of what you're doing and where are the pain points for you?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So I think that just in our country, there's not just the medical professionals, but a lot of people are looking for that quick fix, like give me the medication and then I'll feel better, right, but I think slowly people are realizing it. I recently bumped into a doctor who I had met when I went Actually, he ended up being my dad's doctor at the end and he said I've been following you on LinkedIn and I'm so fascinated by the forest bathing and I want to set up a time where we can talk and I want to see, like how you know if I could talk to my patients about it or what we could do. So and I just ran into him recently. So we still, you know, we haven't had that meeting yet, but I think that when you take the time to learn about nature, you know and hopefully we're going to see this slow change or maybe hopefully it won't be so slow where healthcare professionals start seeing, you know, the benefits of more holistic approaches to health.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay, so you've worked with. You know. This next question is more really a I won't call it a clinical question, but you've worked with healthy individuals and some people who are really facing serious health conditions and I'm going to assume that getting out of nature, can you talk about the impact on both groups, the healthy group and the sick group?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Sure. So one thing I do is I do a monthly nature program for an adult day program. So those are people with dementia and we're looking. When you're working with people with dementia, you're looking to create moments of joy for them and to help keep them calm and busy and interested, right. So you know, every month when I do this program there's some great moment of joy that happens. You know, one month this guy came up to me who has dementia and he said you know, this program has made me remember my childhood home and there were two trees I could see from my bedroom window when I was a kid and I'm so happy just remembering that, you know when his face was lit up and that probably changed his whole day. Or I did a program for people with dementia and their spouses or care partners, whoever it came with. And one guy all of a sudden said I went to Yellowstone once and his wife, who looked so tired when she got there, just lit up and she said you remember that trip we took. And he said yeah, and they started reminiscing about it and for that couple it just changed their day, right, it gave her some hope, it gave her joy and him joy too. So those are a couple examples.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I once took a mother and a daughter out on a walk and the daughter was probably around 30. And the mother had told me that the daughter had severe anxiety, severe ADHD, some other mental health issues and I couldn't quite tell at first, like if she was there because she wanted to be or just kind of appeasing her mom. But we talked at the beginning, we did the meditation, I gave the first invitation and she ran out into the woods like off trail and just with like a lot of excitement and when it was time to come back and do our sharing circle we had to wait for her for a bit and finally she came and she just was bursting with excitement and she's like this was the most incredible experience, she said. My whole life I have felt judged by everyone.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And I've been worried about what people think. And she goes and you know what? The trees aren't judging me, the trees are just letting me be here with them. And I have never felt so free. And the whole experience went like that. She just couldn't stop talking and sharing the mother, her mouth was just wide open the whole time. She couldn't believe all that her daughter was just telling us. And I am not a therapist and I am, you know, very careful not to act in any way like a therapist in those kinds of situations. I just listen, you know, and what most people want is someone to listen to them, right?

Keith D. Terry:

And yes.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Yes. So she, she poured out her heart, literally poured out her heart to her mom and I, and at the end she said thank you, you've given me a new tool in my coping toolbox. You know, I now have a new strategy. I never before thought I could go into nature and it would make me feel this way, so I thought that that was an incredibly powerful experience.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I also one time had a group of therapists out on a walk and a woman who wasn't part of the group came up and asked me what are you guys doing? And I told her about it and she started sobbing and she said that her mother had just passed away a couple of weeks ago and she's like I feel like I need this. And then we started talking a bit Again. The patient advocacy really helped me be there for her because of my knowledge and experience with how to deal with that situation, and she asked me for a hug and she said thank you. This made me feel better.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And then, at the end of the forest bathing walk, the woman who had organized it came up and asked me what was going on with me and that woman, and when I told her, she started crying also and she said that she's been caring for both of her parents and it's so hard and she just started crying and said she needed a hug and it was like just this feel good kind of thing. But you just never know what people are going through and how just this experience might change them. Being in nature.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Somehow it makes you more open and vulnerable, I think.

Keith D. Terry:

I understand and I heard you when you said you're not a therapist, you're careful not to do that, but I hate using the word but, but I will in this case. And you are a therapist because you're helping folks out there with nature. So how do you approach? You know, you've explained what forest bathing is. Now help my listeners to kind of. You know, put us in a session. You know I come. Do I make an appointment with you? You know how do. How do I? How do I go and engage in this process?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So when people reach out to me, I've been booking these forest bathing experiences as generally through groups or organizations not having programs where people can just sign up individually. I've had some people reach out about individual sessions, so generally it's like a work group, a networking group, a family you know something like that.

Keith D. Terry:

It's an organized entity that's coordinating this.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

But also, people have been reaching out on their own. I've had to do a couple of reschedules with these two people. But a daughter reached out because her mom has ALS and is in a wheelchair and they're looking for like different experiences that she can have and still feel alive. You know, and connected We've had, she can't handle the really hot days, so that's why we've had to do some rescheduling. But you know, so it can be that. Or it can be you sign up through your local library and they bring me in, or you know, your business brings me in to do a program.

Keith D. Terry:

OK, OK, that's. That's wonderful that you have to be in. Is there a minimum? Wonderful that you have to be in the. Is there a minimum timeframe you have to be engaged in nature versus or maximum? How do you, how do you prescribe this?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

So the research says that, like you know, an hour and a half to two hours or more is ideal, but not per day, like in a week, say, like one one time that they talk about, like to drop in, to really like get that relaxation can take an hour and a half, but I've seen it happen much quicker and the truth is most of us don't have an hour and a half or two hours, you know, or more, at a time, but we could get benefits from a few minutes, you know. Have you ever just needed to walk around the block to clear your mind?

Keith D. Terry:

You know what's interesting is? You know, I think people have the time. They don't make the time.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Well, that's a good point.

Keith D. Terry:

Because you know. I think this, because you know. One of the questions I was going to ask you is do you think our modern society, especially here in the United States, is making people sick?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I do. I saw a statistic that, on average, kids have less than seven minutes a day of outdoor playtime.

Keith D. Terry:

Seven minutes yeah.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I read that just the other day. I've seen stats that 93% of Americans are in. 93% of our time is spent indoors and other cultures aren't like that. I was very lucky that I got to go to Norway at the beginning of March and Norway and the Scandinavian countries have a concept called free loose live. I always have to pause when I say it, so I say it right and basically it means the joy of outdoor living.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And think about those are. Those are cold countries, cold climate countries and people are outside every day regularly and it's just part of their culture that they do this year round. That if you want to leave work early on Friday and you tell your boss free, loose, live, and your boss says, have a good weekend. You know and like it's just, it's part of their culture and they're healthy and they're happier. You look at those studies of what are the happiest countries of the world and a lot of them are those cold climate countries.

Keith D. Terry:

but they have a and someone who's seen Dr Gail Bick before using forced bathing and after, what's your therapeutic approach for caring for you? You're helping folks on the health advocacy side, which you already said it was stressful, and now you're helping people on the forest bathing side, which could be stressful because people are new to it A lot of questions and expecting maybe a microwave approach that they'll be healed in 30 seconds or 30 minutes. Take me through what you do for you.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I like to get outside and I've from the forest bathing. I've pushed myself to get outside on those cold days where I used to. It used to be easy to say you know it's freezing out, but I'm, you know, bundling up and getting out and it can. It's really made a difference.

Keith D. Terry:

So are you walking.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Walking. Yeah, you can just walk. I just walk in the neighborhood. You know there was one day this winter it was freezing and I just woke up in a miserable mood. You know there was one day this winter it was freezing and I just woke up in a miserable mood. You know how that happens sometimes.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And I said, I just bundled up and I just took a walk over to the park nearby where there's a little creek and I saw these ducks playing in the water and I watched them for a few minutes and I just was so happy from watching the ducks and then I walked back and I felt like a new person and it totally changed the rest of my day. So I'm really kind of leaning in more to getting outside, even on the days where it's not so comfortable, temperature wise.

Keith D. Terry:

You're answering all my questions because I was going to ask you can you give me a specific story about a time when getting out in nature changed someone's circumstance and you just described it. You woke up in a bad mood and voila Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And so sometimes even just going out like a lot of us work from home now and work outside. Take your laptop outside and do some work there and get some fresh air.

Keith D. Terry:

What kind of resistance? Or well, let's, let's, let's say favorable. What kind of? Are you finding that Endeavor's health and the hospitals and the healthcare systems are embracing this, or is it insurance driven?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I would say I haven't gone after either of those approaches. Okay, just been kind of putting it out there to the general public.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Yeah, I was going to say something and I forgot.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, no, the only reason I was going to ask is I would assume that people pay for this, or is it totally volunteer?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

that you do. No, I do have a fee.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Again, a lot of times, because it might be through a library or senior center or business or something, people aren't paying individually. And I still have a lot of programs with the Cook County Forest Preserves that I've been doing.

Keith D. Terry:

So people aren't paying individually, it's more the organization paying me at this point, I understand and I guess I see value in utility and I would assume that the ramp up rate or the usage rate would increase significantly if both of the entities that I mentioned health care providers and insurance would back this. Are you? You haven't approached it.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You've given me a great idea. I honestly don't see insurance covering it. Just that's a whole other conversation. Our health insurance system.

Keith D. Terry:

Yeah, it sure is.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

It's a really interesting idea to approach some of the big hospital systems, healthcare systems in our area about how to offer this as a wellness program.

Keith D. Terry:

And companies too. I mean, I tend to think that people are under stress, you know, and taking a walk, if you remember, during COVID, a lot of people got outside and walked, they walked in it. I have some really dear friends and, and you know, they got out and walked miles every day because who wanted to stay in the house all the time?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Right.

Keith D. Terry:

They had their masks on, but they walked and and and I knew one person that was incredibly uptight that they were calmer after they were out, and so I kind of liked that that.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You know, I once took a team of a work team on a walk and there were a bunch of women who were like young mothers. They had little kids and you know just the experience. My kids are older now, but when I had to get them up and ready for school and myself ready for work and everyone out the door, it's pretty stressful, you know. Those mornings are high stress and everyone's yelling at each other and one of the women at the end said she goes.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

This experience made me realize that if I could just get myself outside for 10 minutes each morning before I wake the kids up, I think the whole morning thing would be calmer and the whole day would be better for all of us. So that that's like tied into, like how can we? We help people working, you know, get, have less stress and have the time to do this? Wouldn't it be great if employers would say like all right, in the middle of the day we're going to have a 10 minute or 15 minute, you know whatever break where everyone can go outside and there's a concept called sit spot where you just go outside and you sit and you give yourself permission to do nothing for the 10 minutes.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And that's really like we do this on the forest bathing walks and some people look at me like what, you want me to sit and do nothing? Yeah, I want you to sit and do nothing, and so it's hard for people to kind of get used to it. But then you come back and you just feel refreshed and you have feel re-energized and you're more creative. I mean, at the end of that work group walk I mentioned people. They were brainstorming about how they could do things. It was a group that, like they own and manage a lot of shopping malls Like how could they bring more nature experiences to the malls for people who come or for the people who work there? And all of a sudden their brains are going and they're thinking of all these things because they just had this quiet time like to calm their minds.

Keith D. Terry:

And you know well, I'm going to put some people in my family on blast. I have people in my family on blast, have people in my family that don't like to go outside, and I think they're crazy for it, and so I call them nature hesitant. Okay, and I'm glad you're going there. So how do you deal with those types of people who are nature hesitant.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Sometimes I get nature, hesitant people on the walks and maybe they were kind of coerced into it by a spouse or something like that and they'll tell. Like I took a group out on Sunday and one of the guys said to me because I'm an indoor husband, I was just forced to be here. And you know what my approach is like, I'm just glad you're here experiencing this. And you know what my approach is like, I'm just glad you're here experiencing this. And you know, like one of the invitations I often try to do is about touch, getting people to actually touch the trees, the plants, the flowers.

Keith D. Terry:

How do you Because?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

well, the you know, the tactile response, the sensory stimulation is so important to all of our well-being, and so I'm like just trying to get people to touch things. And nature has folks they don't want to touch things and nature has folks they don't want to touch, like they're nervous. So I said don't touch, just look, you know. Again it's like do whatever works for you in that moment. We're just glad you're here outside. And hopefully, then they experience it and enjoy it and want to do it more.

Keith D. Terry:

I understand. Is it better to you know, let's talk about the sensory part. I'm glad you brought that up. Is it better to just take a walk, or should you walk in and use your sensory senses?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I think using your senses is great.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You know so often when we walk we're listening to a podcast or talking on the phone with a friend or music or we're with a friend and we're and we're walking and we're not really taking it all in, and or we're walking for exercise. Right, you're just power walking, and so part of the what we do in forest bathing is you are just slowing down, you're taking it all in and it's really magical. It's just a magical experience, like for your senses, and. But I'd say walking is better than not walking and, as we talked about before, like being in your, in your backyard or on a patio with just one plant, is better than not being out outside, even though the forest is probably best, you know. So someone once said to me in the years ago don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You know, whatever you, you know it doesn't have to be ideal to get these benefits.

Keith D. Terry:

That's brilliantly said. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

And there's something also called awe walks. I learned this from an eco gerontologist out in California and that's just the idea that, like, go on a walk and find something that you can be in awe of Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You know. So she did a video where she was in a grocery store parking lot and there was a tree and she, like, just sat by the tree and just to illustrate this, and the science behind awe is very similar to the science behind nature, like it, it makes you less stressed, it makes you feel less anxious, it just gives you a sense of connection to things, to the world.

Keith D. Terry:

Now for those kids that are in the urban areas, where it's a concrete jungle, is being outside in the city different or the same as being in? For I mean, it's probably a crazy question, but is it?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Right, so you have to adapt to what you have available to you.

Keith D. Terry:

Okay.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Right. So again, that's where the one tree comes into play. Or, just you know, finding a little park near you where you can enjoy some greenery.

Keith D. Terry:

So the key is greenery. I got it. I get it now. It's not. It's not outside, it's being connected, like gardening. You know it's not outside, it's being connected, or even like gardening.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You know, plant some stuff in your yard, on your deck, whatever you have. There's a bacteria in the soil which, when we get our hands in there, it improves our mood, it can improve our cognition. So, like, get your hands in there and garden. You know, there's so many ways to bring nature in. Like, I love being in the forest, I love being in the mountains, I love being in the mountains.

Keith D. Terry:

We don't have any mountains in Chicago, so I'm not getting to the mountains, you know.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

But, like you just kind of find what works for you and it. You know, and it's definitely tougher in urban areas, but I think what we're hopefully going to see is more urban planning, more design using something called biophilic design, which is just a way of trying to bring nature in. So like, how can we bring in more natural light into our office? Can we have green walls?

Keith D. Terry:

You know, I think it'll help some of the violence happening in some of the inner cities and all across America. I mean, it's just. Everybody seems to be so stressed out on everything. A couple more questions for you is what do you think are some of the obstacles keeping people from seeking this kind of healing? Is it because they don't know about it, or are there other obstacles?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I think some of it is not knowing about it. I definitely spend a lot of time in my intro and overview at each sports bathing program talking about the health benefits, and I can see the light bulbs going off in people's heads. You know like, oh, I'm not just out here to hug trees. You know, or like do some weird hippy dippy, new age kind of thing, like Like this is real, there's science behind it, and then you know that really seems to like hook people in, is just that understanding about what nature does. So I think education and awareness is important.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I also think something that you've been touching on is what about the accessibility of nature? You know, if you're in urban areas, you don't have nature as we think about it. So it's like kind of reframing what nature can I find? What nature can I bring in, you know, into my immediate world so that it's accessible and most nature is free? You know, hopefully, like the cost issue goes out the window because anyone can go find a place, you know, along Lake Michigan to walk. Our forest preserves are free.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I was actually amazed to learn that the Cook County forest preserves are 11% of all the land in Cook County. So we live in an area where, like, there's been a real commitment to preserving nature. I don't want to go off track into difficult areas, but I am concerned about what the future holds in terms of nature.

Keith D. Terry:

Well, tell me about that.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Well, you know, there's all the climate change issues, pollution, protecting our public lands, you know, from development, that sort of thing.

Keith D. Terry:

I see, I see the impact on actual nature itself. Yeah, I concur with you, and I think there are a lot of people who do. However, you know, some of the governments across the globe are starting to shift their so-called policies greenhouse gases, things of that nature and so if we were to go the other way, though, if people did adopt a nature-based healing system, just tell me pontificate for a moment. 10 years from now, what do you think the outcome is for America?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I think we'd have people just a lot happier and better placed mentally and physically too. You know the getting outside helps. You want to move your body, and then we talked about you know the effect on the immune system. But I think really to make change, we need to get the young people outside right so that they grow up appreciating nature. You know we could have a whole show talking about screens and technology and safety issues as you were also alluding to before of being outside. But you know just letting, making sure people know how good they they can feel out in nature and what it does for you.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I mean, a lot of times people walk out of the walks and I'm not pushing the climate issues and the politics, but you feel more connected to the environment and that makes you want to take care of it. So, like, how can you know? How can we protect it? And when people don't know all this? Like? I took a group out yesterday and one of the guys just couldn't stop talking about how he lived five minutes from the forest preserve we were at and he had never been there and he couldn't stop talking about it's so beautiful. This is amazing. I can't believe we can't. I can't believe. This is literally five minutes from my house and I don't do this, you know. And so it kind of woke him up to, you know, and I would call him one of the nature hesitant ones, you know, but like he was just his mind blown about the experience and about how there was so much natural beauty right here in the suburbs.

Keith D. Terry:

What do you think the impact of AI is going to bring to forest bathing, if anything?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

I'm not like that. Up on AI, I'm trying to think about how it could replace I don't know. I mean, I'm almost thinking about how, like a lot of these, a lot of times, you can be indoors like a pel, a peloton right, you can do a peloton bike ride and watching the video of being in the forest I do that you know things like that I don't know if that kind of counts under the ai thing, but there could, I guess could be more of that going on, but you're not gonna get all the benefits you know, you're.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

You're not breathing in the fighting sides, you're not touching the trees, fighting sides. You're not touching the trees and everything and you're not. It's just different.

Keith D. Terry:

And are you finding caregivers are embracing force bathing?

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Yeah, I mean with the groups, the dementia groups especially, like the, caregiving is probably one of the, if not the hardest job out there, right, and these people are, they're underpaid and they're doing a lot of work that isn't appealing to a lot of people, right, and they need a lot of patience. And so getting outside helps people who aren't well, as well as their caregivers, because it provides calm, a calming environment, a calming activity for both of them. You know, and one of the things I'll do when I do programs more for those groups is I'll give them a handout at the end of like 20 easy things you can do outside, because, again, it's like making sure people know, like you know, we could go outside, we could make a bird feeder, we could do leaf rubbings. You know we could paint rocks like all these simple things that and you could do them with your grandkids. You know we could paint rocks like all these simple things that and you could do them with your grandkids.

Keith D. Terry:

You know it could be intergenerational.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

One of my favorite outcomes was a woman came to one of my walks and she was friends with someone I know, so that's how this story got back to me. But she was doing a family vacation two weeks later with her kids and grandkids, and so she did a modified forest bath the first day and her teenage grandkids loved it, and every day she came up with another nature activity for them to do and they were able to connect and they had something to talk about at dinner every night. Okay, like she, you know, that was just. That was a fun. Outcome of what happened is that she brought it to her family.

Keith D. Terry:

Got it. So my last question for you if this mic that you have in front of you was your final chance to leave a message for the next generation of caregivers, what would that message be? As it relates to Forest Bailey.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

A message to caregivers.

Keith D. Terry:

Yeah or anyone, you pick the group.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

Well, I think to everyone is get outside. You know, experience just all the beauty we have out here, give yourself a chance to connect to nature, connect to other people who are out there and you know, let it, just let yourself be. You know, it's really comes down to just learning how to be present and mindful, and I think that experiences we can have with forest bathing can help us in our personal relationships as well as professionally. Just that learning to listen. Right, you're listening to the forest, you're noticing things, and when you listen to people and you notice people, they feel good and you connect.

Keith D. Terry:

Well said.

Dr. Gayle Byck:

We need that, we need those connections.

Keith D. Terry:

Dr Gail Bick. Thank you so much for being a part of the show. You've shown us that healing doesn't necessarily always come from the inside, that it comes from outside as well. Your work is a reminder that sometimes the most powerful medicine is the simplest, and that is being outside, being present, slowing down and connecting to the world around us. Thanks for listening to the Next Big Thing. I'm your host, keith D Terry. If you've enjoyed this episode and you'd like to support this podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media or leave a rating and a review. To catch all the latest from me, you can follow me on my YouTube channel at Keith D Terry. If you want to recommend a guest, please email me at info at terryperformancegroupcom. This has been produced by your host and Jade Productions.